2nd Serve – Keeping The Eyes Up Through the Contact Point
Dick Johnson from St. Louis, MO is one of the world’s top players in the senior 65s.
Classic everything, especially his 2nd serve.
This guy is going to be playing tennis forever, effortless strokes, lots of grips, and gets to play pain free.
The ball he hits is “heavy”. It looks like he’s not putting much into it, but I’m telling you, it gets on you in a heartbeat and has a way of sort of pushing you back.
Dick does something on his serve (and we’re going to look at his 2nd serve in the video below) that we’ve all been told to do, but rarely, if ever, do we actually do it.
So here’s the teaching cliche: Keep your head up at contact on your serve. You know, don’t pull your head down too early…
Makes a lot of sense to follow that advice, but the reality is that most of us don’t keep our head up at contact long enough, if at all…
Keeping your head up at contact, and specifically keeping your eyes looking up at what was just the contact point, that body alignment helps keep you sideways at and through contact which helps you produce a much better spin for your 2nd serve.
What does spin do for our 2nd serve? I know you know, but just so we’re on the same page, 2nd serve spin equates to safe height over the net and the spin curves itself back down into the service box. You don’t have to push your 2nd serve in play and let gravity drop it into the service box. (Nice way to get your doubles partner dinged up).
Those two features of a good spin serve equal the great benefit of being consistent with your 2nd serve. Meaning, having the confidence when you step up to play that your 2nd serve is actually going in play and it won’t be setting up your opponent.
That’s a pretty darn good feeling…
Discover the secrets to a consistent in play topspin 2nd serve that bounces up and out of the returner’s strike zone and gets you (and your partner in doubles) lots of easy point ending opportunities.
Brent’s Detailed DVD & Downloadable 60 Minute Lesson
“The 3 Magic Moves Of The Serve” – Click here
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Hi Brent –
Thanks.
How do you hit from 7 o’clock to 1 o’clock and pronate? It looks to me like Dick is pronating into the ball and making contact at 11 o’clock, not going from 7 o’clock to 1 o’clock.
Jim Fox
Hi Jim and good comment…
We should pronate into the ball.
The racket (your wrist) starts it’s release (pronation) just prior to contact.
7 to 1 is simply the swing directional path the racket takes. Does it actually start contact at 7 and brush up to 1?
I’m not smart enough to know for sure, but I do know that for a classic topspin 2nd serve, you’ve got to swing in that direction (if you’re right handed) if you want to impart topspin.
Brent
Thanks for the video Brent! Tips on the second serve will always be much appreciated haha.
Thanks for the tips, Brent.
But I don’t understand the timing of the pronation: if we pronate into the ball [just prior to contact], do we not hit the ball FLAT instead of topspin? That’s what happens to me if I focus on pronating too early.
I always understood that for topspin serve the pronation occurs a little later, ie. hit up on edge and then pronate?? … but the frustrating thing is that the timing is so fragile and I cannot reproduce anything consistent. A one millisecond difference in the timing of pronation causes the racket face to point in a different direction. As a result, nothing seems consistent! How do I nail down the timing to get it just right in order to produce topspin?
Thanks, I hope my question makes sense!
Philip, from Edmonton, Canada
this is the first time I’ve ever seen this tip in any coach ing forum.
I have been aware of this for years but it is difficult to do.
easy in practice but it is so tempting to look at the target just before striking when it’s in a “real” match!
Hi Brent,
Thanks for the great tip, which I can’t wait to practice once it stops raining here in Sydney. But there is one thing I notice Dick DOESN’T do, and that is the deep front knee bend recommended by Jim McLellan, based on on analysis of the Fed’s second serve. Could it be because we seniors don’t have the upper leg strength to do it throughout a match anymore? I personally have a dodgy hip flexor muscle that seems to get aggravated by that action just on 1st serves.
Hi Brent
I have your serve video lessons.
I do not seem to be able to drop my racket behind my back when I serve.
What can I do to enable this?
Rgds Mike
Great! I make the same mistake of not staying focused on the contact point. This was a timely reminder.
Thanks,
Fred
WOW! I’m one of those people who starts looking at the target midway through. I can’t wait to play tennis again so I can try this. I’m sure it will take some getting used to though. lol
Thanks for a great tip and visual on how he does it. Can’t wait to try it.
Brent, excellent tip and video.It took me weeks to figure this out. It seems simple but it is not. I no longer have many double faults. My son is 11 and this is his major service issue. His form is fine but once that head drops there is no telling where the ball will go. It is usually into the net. I am 42 and I am always amazed by how much I learn from you and your generation. Your site is outstanding.
Thanks Brian
Hi Brian and it’s always amazed me how our perception of small changes isn’t taken as seriously as they should be.
It’s like we only work on big changes. But to me, it’s the small fundamentals that really seem to make the biggest changes in our games.
Thanks for your comment on “my generation”. It’s so tough to separate our reality from we see on TV with the pros.
To think that there really are teaching pros out there telling students to play just like Rafa… Ugh.
Brent – Brent’s 40% Discount on the All Lessons Package
Dear Brent,
I think the point you were making and a critically important one, is that you benefit greatly by keeping your eyes focused on the ball through contact and you keep your head still and up in the same position even after contact. That concept seems to work pretty well on Mr. Federer’s groundies. I think your observation on Dick’s serve may be one of the most useful tips I have
received since the first time someone suggested the same advice on my topspin one handed backhand. Thanks for all your help.
Larry
Hey folks. This is your 2nd serve model. Copy it.
Study it, pick out 3 fundamentals and work on them until they are automatic.
Feel free to send me a short video clip to brent@webtennis.net (nothing fancy and not longer than 10 seconds) to insure you’re on the right path.
I can do a side by side comparison with Dick’s serve and let’s see what changes you can make.
Brent – Brent’s Detailed DVD & Downloadable Tennis Lessons
Hey Sean and you’re falling in line with so many of your fellow WebTennis subscribers who have really enjoyed this tip and seeing what it is that Dick does so well.
I worked on it yesterday and it’s amazing to me how much I have to exaggerate keeping my eyes up to copy and do what Dick does.
Brent – “The 3 Magic Moves Of The Serve” DVD Lesson
Hi Fred and don’t we all…
Dick Johnson does this better than anyone I see out there.
I’m telling you, if you really want to improve your game and be able to play tennis for the rest of your life, copy and model a top world class senior player like Dick Johnson.
Brent – “The 3 Magic Moves Of The Serve”
Hi Mike. Any chance you can send me a short video clip of your serve and let me see exactly what’s going on there?
Nothing fancy with the video clip and not longer than 10 seconds. Email to brent@webtennis.net
Brent
I’ve never felt that the really deep knee bend for senior players isn’t all that important.
Let’s be realistic. If you’re young, fine, go for it, but I don’t have an exaggerated knee bend. Fed? Come on. Arguably the greatest player of all time. There are certainly lots of fundamentals of Fed’s serve we can realistically copy, but his deep knee bend and the timing of it aren’t one of them.
To me, a vital aspect of the serve is to make sure you are efficiently & quickly moving forward into the net after your service motion, and a poorly timed knee bend in your serve actually slows you down or can throw you slightly off balance as you try to move forward.
Brent – 2nd Serve Spin = Consistency That Doesn’t Set Up Your Opponent
This happens not only on the serve, but on all of the shots we play. We tend to look at what our result is going to be too early.
I’ve always wanted to put a video camera on top of my head and see exactly where my eyes are pointing when I make contact.
OK, we’re doing that this week folks! Gotta find a helmet camera.
Brent
Hi Larry and good to hear from you.
It seems like such a simple tip, a simple concept, but like the rest of the game, these small fundamentals need tons of focused practice.
There are no quick fixes, no quick tips that you can simply understand, implement, and now you’ve got it.
Habits. Training new habits is all we’re doing. Assuming you can “feel” the new tip (videoing yourself or mirrors helps to insure that you’re copying correctly from the model), you then simply have to train a new habit.
Most players out there don’t want to have to go through the learning curve timetable of training a new habit.
You’re right about Fed’s technique of keeping his eyes looking at what just was the contact point.
Tow good things happen when we do what Fed does.
#1: Our head stays aligned in a place that makes the other fundamentals of that stroke work.
#2: Confidence. If we don’t feel a need to “peek” at our shot prematurely, we then gain confidence which tends to equate to better swing freedom through the ball and out to the proper stroke’s finish position.
Brent – http://www.webtennis.net/tennis-mental-skills.htm
Hello Brent, thanks for the great video.Hard to believe this gentleman is competing in the 65’s !! I disagree with one of the comments saying that he might be making contact at 11 o’clock.That would require a behind the back toss which is not the case.I think Mr Johnson’s motion is perfect 7 to 1 motion with the racket hitting a perfect “OVER-AND-IN” racket head path and with the right thumb ending up pointing down(pronation).I might argue about some details but everyody’s got different technique.For exemple, Mr Johnson is leaning forward on the front leg as he is tossing the ball….some might argue that the leaning should happen as the swing start….as well as the left arm coming down very early after toss…Anyway, it is amazing how the slow mo video reveals all the details. I was recently watching an old slow mo of a Pete Sampras serve on youtube. The racket path is very different.Pete gives the impression that his racket head is going to litterally wrap up around the ball in a 360 degres manner.Amazing.I have tried both Mr Johnson’s technique and Pete’s today on court. Mr Johnson’s is the most reliable , at least for my level of play. Pete’s technique requires a lot of practice and wrist snap. Thank you.
GO ROGER !!!!!!
PL.
Your question is probably the most asked question I get.
Pronation… And most players understand the fact that the racket turns at some point in time, but the mystery seems to be when.
I’ll do a analysis video of how and when Dick pronates for his 2nd serve.
Brent
If you’ve got a real 2nd serve, and by real I mean a 2nd serve with topspin that solves your 3 problems with that serve (safe height over the net; spins back down inside the service line; and bounces up out of the returner’s power strike zone), then you’ve got a weapon that gives the rest of your game so much confidence.
It’s amazing how a real or perceived weakness in our game tends to have it’s own little annoying voice during the rest of our strokes and strategies.
Quieting that voice is a simple matter of improving that weakness to where it’s not a liability. It doesn’t have to be a weapon, it just has to be consistent where it doesn’t give your opponent an advantage.
Confidence in your game explodes when that little snippy voice gets banished…
Brent
And as we are on the serve subject, and I don’t know if most of you will agree with me, but teaching a kick serve at club level or to any student over 35 years old is stupid.Kick serve, like full western forehand grips is all we hear about in tennis schools and clubs. Well,this video of Mr Johnson’s second serve is exactly what we,coaches, should be teaching to most of our already advanced amateur students. The kick serve as it is is the perfect receipe for injuries, back injuries,shoulder injuries and wrist injuries which might mean the end of still enjoyable amateur and club player’s career….We should all get inspired by this video when teaching second serve to those kinds of students. The kick serve requires too much back bending ,wrist snap and body momentum and rotation to be suitable for average players.
GO ROGER !!
PL.
Hi Patrick and I appreciate your well articulated comment.
You’re right. We could pick apart anyone’s serve and find a flaw in it.
But the reality is that Dick’s serve fundamentals are correct and he has been able to adapt those fundamentals to his own physical and mental realities (skills).
Dick has taken his personality and laid it on top of the simple but vital fundamentals need for a really good 2nd serve.
That’s all you can ask for. There is no way to take the proper stroke mechanics and make everyone like identical.
However, too often players try to force the fundamentals onto their personality and that doesn’t always work too well.
Pete did snap his wrist, arm, whatever, but the reality for the rest of us is to master how to at least “release” our wrist (natural pronation) just prior to contact to be able to generate racket speed.
Brent – “The 3 Magic Moves Of The Serve”
Thanks Patrick. The problem is that most teaching pros are having to deal with students and parents who think that if Rafa does it, then I (or my kid) should do it too.
We don’t need a true kick serve to be able to play well in singles or doubles.
It’s way too tough to learn and eventually get a kicker that hasn’t already caused some sort of injury.
And the reality is that we’re not going to master it.
Copy what Dick Johnson does and you’ll have a great 2nd serve that solves your 3 major challenges on that 2nd serve.
1. Safe height over the net
2. A spin that curves back down inside the service line
3. A bounce up and out of the returner’s power strike zone
If you can be satisfied with developing a 2nd serve that accomplishes those 3 benefits, guess what, the confidence you’ll get to the rest of your game will absolutely take off to new levels of fun!
Brent – 40% Discount on Brent’s “All Lessons Package”
This brings up the question that Oscar Wegnar asks. Why not make this your first serve, if you can hit it consistently? Or at least mix it in as a first often? I saw this idea of using the spin as a first serve ages ago and forgot about it. But as my first serve gets better and I am playing better people, I find that the better my serve is, the faster it comes back. So, if I did as Oscar says, I might throw them off, rather than give the big babes something hard to hit. What do you think of this philosophy?
Dear Mr.Brent Abel,
Thank you for your advice regardirg the second serve! For me it worked absolutely perfect! I have read your advice on Saturday morning and I have realised I don’t do what Dick does and kept in mind. During the game the serve was my focus and I was absolutely shocked. No joke, even when I was down by 15-40 or 30-40 I served focusing on this advice and the ball was going into the corners forcing my opponent to do unforced error. I play regulary with my cousing(he was the opponent) and he is always attacking the second serve. This time he was on defence on my second serve. I did also some double errors but the most important thing it was that on my serve, I did my game and put pressure on him.This give you tremendous trust in your power and ability. I even finished the game(6-4 6-4) with a second serve ace(well, not 100% ace but he barely touched the ball). It is amazing how your body is adjusting to the ball when you make eye contact like in the video you showed to us. Thanks again!
Hi Mary and good comment…
No question that mixing the types of serves you play on your first serve is a fundamental and vital strategy.
No matter how big your first serve is, and no matter how consistent you are with it, if your opponent starts to safely guess where and when it’s coming, they have the advantage.
Some of my senior tournament opponents have big serves, big forehands, etc., but if I can safely anticipate what’s coming to me, that’s a huge advantage for me despite the quality of my opponent’s shot.
So, think about what creates challenges for your opponents when you play your first serve. Not only is it power, but it’s equally challenging to have to deal with different incoming speeds, different placements, different strike zones, you get the picture, you could realistically present a dozen or more completely different types of serves to your opponents.
If you have ask most tennis players what they think is the #1 element for a good first serve, most of them will say power. The better players understand that the #1 element is being unpredictable. Too many of us perceive that playing a standard topspin 2nd serve as our first serve is either a sign of weakness and/or a big opportunity for our opponent.
Think again. Get out there next time you’re on the court and mix up your first serves…
Brent – “Serve Spin: The Answer To Life” – Click here
It’s amazing to me how such a small fundamental can make such a huge difference with some players.
Most of that difference making is actually having the guts to get out there and at least try it a few times.
This may actually be one of the so called “quick fixes” that I totally can’t stand because players tend to think the rest of the game should also be a total quick fix.
Do what Cristian did. Try it, see if it works, and if you don’t get instant success, try it some more, tinker, experiment, but most importantly, work on something this week…
Brent – Downloadable & DVD Tennis Lessons (the non quick-fix versions)
Dear Brent:The prolongated eye contact and the tossing arm tucking helping the side way position is great. But regarding the 7 to 1 hitting, anatomicaly is impossible in this sequence of serves.If you, with grate patience observe repetetibly, you will find out, that after beeing on edge and then in a great pronation,and after the brushing and impact, the follow through ends on his rigth side, thumb down and palm back and the only way to end that way, is by brushing the ball in an Outside-In manner.This will produce an out side kick, like a lefty serve,wich is a great serve.The brushing is difficult to tell with precision in this video clip, but to me it looks like is coming around from 2 or 3 to maybe 8 or near by. Unfortunaly I am not been able to observe the effect of the bouncing ball in the receiver end, to confirm this. But by observing his partner he is moving to the rigth, Following the ball as he should, altough he is moving from a proper second ofensive position sideways,instead of advancing forward in an oblique manner to be more effective.But this tells me that probably the ball was hitting near the corner(External “T”) and bouncing to the left of the receiver. Great observations as always and thanks Brent. Yours truly. Jorge. Please Pardon my not perfect english,but my native language is spanish.
Brent, love all the info on the kick serve. Lucky to have learned it at 15(now 53)and use it more than ever. One challenge is how to kick it into the alley on the duece court. The serve is so effective most of my opponents will try to run around it to hit a forehand.Have not found a way to hit it successfully into the duece alley unlike the ad side. I have read where some women pros are working on slice second serve as some of the bigger women hitters, ie Serena, were pounding their kick second serves as it came up..I would think you would have this same challenge at your level of play. Any ideas, suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Also, havent seen any references to Junior lessons in your work.. Do you have anything special for juniors they should know.. Have been working with my 10 year old every night.. seems that better and stronger are the key words at this age..
Many thanks
Greg Thomas
Uh, my limited brain power needs help with this…
Brent
Nothing specific for juniors because the technique is the same, but some times the explanation is different.
Throwing a football helps teach them the feel of pronation plus it’s lots of fun and helps with other tennis related hand-eye coordination stuff.
The key to having a good serve is mostly about creating doubt within the returner.
The potential combinations of spin type (flat, top, slice), ball speed, and placement are pretty big, so the better you are at varying your serve, the more neutralize your opponent, and the less opportunity they have for teeing off on your serve.
Brent – 40% Lesson Package Discount